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What about... Reforged?
Hello there.submitted by Kvaygonn to warcraft3
It's been quite sometime since Warcraft 3 got Patch 1.32. In other words, Reforged came out and we all know how that turned out. It's safe to say that dust has been settled and I always felt like that this situation didn't get the in-depth look it deserved: usually people just looked at the surface and came up to the conclusion I personally don't really agree with. So, I think it would be interesting to try to provide my point of view on several aspects of this mess, even though nobody asked for it.
WARNING: This is a really long post. I'm sorry for this inconvenience. This text probably could've served way better as a base for a video, but I don't have required equipment and proper skills to create a high quality material that's worth to watch in this format. I'll simply try my best to succeed in this more accessible environment.
Activision Blizzard and their influence.Let's start from that conclusion. People tend to put all the blame on the higher-ups, claiming that their actions at the time affected Reforged and it's development. I'm not disregarding the fact that layoffs back in 2019 and their greedy desire to cut costs probably affected Classic Games Team plans, but I don't think that was the sole issue. We saw what happened to Heroes of the Storm and I think it's quite safe to say that Warcraft 3: Reforged wasn't really a high priority project for the company and it was easier for higher-ups to cut its resources. We can only guess how much of developers and budget they were given and later lost, but Classic Games Team was most likely affected by those events in one way or other. Despite this, I think that there's more to this story than people prefer to believe.
One more thing... Advertisement. I don't remember them promoting Reforged that much, but not informing people about changes in development and updating remaster's site accordingly isn't a good thing. Even I thought there would be more new maps for "new" versions of campaigns. Although I personally think that it's weird to pre-order a game and not keep a very close eye on it, some people actually have a life and real responsibilities... or something like that, I guess. In other words, Blizzard should've taken that into consideration when they made certain changes during development to inform everyone who pre-ordered Reforged about them.
Looking back at art style.Some of you probably noticed that Reforged's art style didn't match original Warcraft 3. That might not be a problem for new players (if those did stick around), those who just played campaigns once long time ago or someone who genuinely like current realistic look (there's nothing wrong with that), but the problem is that it doesn't match the original art style of the game. It's really bad for a remaster of the game because it's goal is to enhance an old game and bring it to the fans and new audience as it was back in a day. Usually people mention these remasters as a good examples of that: StarCraft: Remastered, Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition and Command & Conquer Remastered Collection.
What went wrong? I kind of addressed this issue back in "What about... Samwise Didier?", but it was more "neutral" approach where I just compared some statements from him and Brian Sousa, lead artist of Warcraft 3: Reforged at the time. From what we can see there, it seems like Brian and his team didn't really understood the original look of Warcraft 3 (what we can kind of see on sketches that were shown during Blizzcon 2018 panel) and decided to fix something that wasn't broken. Instead, we got overdetailed models that are hard to distinguished in gameplay and they had to address it by making changes to the colors and try to make models more recognizable, but this can't really solve the issue. Some of you might say that this was an attempt to appeal towards Chinese audience since they were getting some exclusive news and unique Collector's Edition from NetEase. Did that work out for them? Not really. I heard that Chinese forums are still full of refund requests to this day.
There's just too many differences between models in their original and Reforged state. Not just visually, but also in file sizes, rotation and scale. There's also a problem with some missing models that didn't received their Reforged version whatsoever, such as standard Death Knight and Orc Marine. It's sort of impossible to make maps work in both variations and that shouldn't have been a problem. It's really bizarre for me to think that Reforged's art team didn't take into the account the fact that Warcraft 3 was around for 17 years (almost 18, in fact) and had a strong community during all this time. Customs maps and campaigns used existing models for specific purposes and created new ones following their style. The fact that a lot of map makers have to significantly rework terrain because of the differences between models in terms of both style and appearance is ridiculous.
They had a good direction back in February 2015. That's when Blizzard brought Warcraft 3 assets to Starcraft 2 and allowed players to easily use them in Arcade. As a bonus, they also included some new models made by DragonFly Studio and they look much better than what we got. Those models aren't perfect and could be improved, but they did capture the spirit of Warcraft 3 very well. It wouldn't take so much time for Blizzard to make sure that these models work in the game. As a result, they would've had more time and money to dedicate towards other parts of Reforged that required more attention.
Some of Warcraft 3 HD models made by DragonFly Studios. Screenshot from Kacpa2.
What about... Lemon Sky Studios?Just like they did with StarCraft: Remastered, Blizzard worked again with this studio and they worked on various things. They worked only on visual side of things: models and their animations, icons, UI elements, etc. Although it seems like that they're mostly specialized on the realistic style, it doesn't suppose to mean that they weren't able to achieve something closer to Warcraft 3. Lemon Sky is an outsourcing studio and they were doing exactly what they were asked to do by Blizzard. They were guided by Reforged's art team and what we have in the game is a result of that collaboration.
Lemon Sky's involvement in Warcraft 3: Reforged's development.
However, it doesn't mean that there's nothing left to talk about regarding to Lemon Sky Studios and their involvement in the Reforged's development. In February 1 2020, people from Lemon Sky supposedly reached out to warcraft3 because they were "simply interested" in what people think about their work on Reforged and even shared some details about it. That post was verified by u/wTcJediMaster. I trust him and he's a nice guy, but let's still keep the benefit of the doubt. Although I'm not going to dive into it, I think that you definitely should look at their replies nonetheless.
Importance of Warcraft 3's fundamentals.Before moving on to the conclusion of my own, there's another topic that I wanted to address. As Reforged was announced and developed, there has been some minor requests by group of players that simple suggested to make Warcraft 3 more similar to Starcraft 2. That includes such features as increased unit selection cap for melee, addition of Co-op and war chests. I don't understand this desire to turn Warcraft 3 into something it's not supposed to be. Although both of these games are RTS, they have different style of gameplay. Some people tend to forget that Reforged is a remaster or second expansion, technically speaking. It's not a new game nor a remake and it shouldn't be. I would've said that planned cutscene were also closer to ones that StarCraft 2 had, but that might be just a matter of perspective. Either way, both fans and newcomers shouldn't have been denied to experience a definitive edition of good old Warcraft 3 in its full glory.
When it comes to unit selection cap, I'm not saying that this feature shouldn't be implemented in game at all. Option to decrease/increase the amount of units you can have in one group would be a great addition to custom maps and campaigns. However, when it comes to Warcraft 3 itself, I think this change is just something that doesn't needed due to gameplay mechanics. This game is more micro focused with lower food cap and upkeep system. You need to master micromanagement and keep your group relatively small and safe to avoid reaching upkeep because it will damage your gold income. Current unit selection cap is more than enough for that. Blizzard don't need to change that and other game mechanics in favor of those who refuse to understand how Warcraft 3 works as a RTS. Increased unit selection cap will only encourage those players to not learn how to play this game, do more mistakes and get punished for it as a result.
Also, I don't think that Co-op mode from StarCraft 2 and War Chests fit in Warcraft 3. Despite the fact that adding microtransactions into 2002 game doesn't sound like a good idea, inclusion of official Co-op mode in Warcraft 3 will not have a good effect in the long run because of competition with custom maps and already existing Co-op maps specifically. World Editor is more easier to use than Starcraft 2's map editor and that's one of the reasons why its custom map scene not as large as in Warcraft 3. People will more likely shift their focus to Blizzard's Co-op because of it being an official Blizzard's mode and microtransaction factor. If people investing more money into specific part of the game, they would most likely want to make the most of it. It wouldn't matter how well custom maps are made if their creators would struggle to get players attention because of the addictive nature of Co-op mode powered by in-game purchases for it.
The Tragedy of Classic Games Team.Bad ideas with good intentions. That might be the best way to describe this whole situation. I'm not saying that Classic Games Team wanted to screw up Warcraft 3 and I'm not blaming only them, but I think that all problems started from that specific point. From everything I've seen, it seems to me that Classic Games Team highly overestimated their abilities and chosen a wrong path instead of focusing on best parts of Warcraft 3's legacy and it's core audience that stayed in the game for all those years. After that bad timing followed the company and all their initial plans were sabotaged. It all resulted in the current situation, and I wouldn't be surprised if even they don't know what's gonna happen with Warcraft 3 in the foreseeable future.
There should be more constructive and fair criticism. It's up to you to decide if I'm matching this requirement, but I'm not here to just whine about this situation and blame specific developers without actual points. There were some details I planned to address at first, but ultimately decided against it because that could've resulted in unnecessary drama and I don't want to encourage that. I think that we should be as brutally honest as we can, but only based on the facts. Not just hate for the sake of hating and being an obnoxious idiot. I would also say that it's okay if you're somehow managing to enjoy the current version of the game, despite all odds and/or trying to be as positive as possible. However, there's no need to take it to extreme and blindly defend the game, ignoring those issues and overpraising developers. This is a moment where I think that harsh truth is better than a sweet lie.
What about... now?Well... We're here for a while with this long game of patience. Classic Games Team will fix Warcraft 3 and move it to more pleasant state eventually. It's very unlikely they will abandon it anytime soon, even if it doesn't seem like it with current passing in terms of updates to the game. There's probably not enough people to fully address all issues at the time. Blizzard seems to gather bug reports, but a lot of them just ends up being ignored until one nice guy reminds them about these reposts yet again.
How about something more positive? Allow me to show you these new beautiful icons. I don't know when exactly those were added in the game files, but they were discovered relatively recently... Personally, they remind me about portraits of Lich's abilities from Warcraft 3 in Heroes of the Storm. All these icons are very similar to originals and seems to be drawn in similar style. Maybe those will end up serving the same purpose and just being a new portraits, but I like to think of them as a good sign of possible bright future for Warcraft 3. Sometimes it's just nice to be optimistic...
You'll need CascView to browse Warcraft 3's data in search for these icons:
\"Frost Nova\", \"Frost Armor\", \"Dark Ritual\" and \"Death and Decay\" portraits from HotS.
Thank you for reading this mess! Links to the referred material:
Brazilian Big12 series, Episode 2/12: Vasco
In this series I will present each of the 12 Brazilian teams that together compose the "Big 12". My point is to make them more knowledgeable to you, since each one of these teams have their share of the Brazil national team success and of Brazilian club football accomplishments as a whole. I'll try to be as smooth, efficient and non-boring as I can. If the feedback is positive, I'll keep bringing more to this series. So ok, let's do this!
Method: I'll present the teams in a chronological order, from the oldest foundation (Flamengo-1895) to the latest one (São Paulo-1930). The order will be: Flamengo, Vasco, Fluminense, Gremio, Botafogo, Atletico Mineiro, Internacional, Corinthians, Santos, Palmeiras, Cruzeiro, Sao Paulo. How many of these have you heard of?
Extra clubs: Due to a high number of requests, I'll also present 3 teams who don't belong to the Big12, but are also considered big clubs in Brazil: Bahia, Athletico Paranaense and Coritiba. Welcome to the club!
Geographical reference: Before we start, I'd like to ask something very simple from you. I want you to keep in mind that these 12 teams are spread in 4 different States in Brazil. The club's State name is written below, next to the club's name. It has a direct link to Google Maps, so that you can check it out to make this experience more accurate.
Episode 2/12: Vasco (State: Rio de Janeiro), founded in 1898
State rivals: Flamengo, Fluminense and Botafogo
Stadium: São Januário (Capacity: 21.880)
Mascot: The Admiral
Major achievements: 1 South American Championship of Champions (1948), 1 Copa Libertadores (1998), 4 Brazilian Leagues (1974, 1989, 1997, 2000), 1 Copa do Brasil (2011), 1 Copa Mercosul (2000)
State League titles: 24 (Against Flamengo's 36, Fluminense's 31, Botafogo's 21)PLAY AND LISTEN TO VASCO'S ANTHEM WHILE READING - Click here
Vasco da Gama, the Portuguese explorer who found a sea route to India in 1498, and Vasco, the Rio de Janeiro sports club founded by Portuguese immigrants in 1898
Vasco da Gama (1460 or 1469-1524) was a Portuguese explorer and the first European to reach India by sea, creating the first link between Europe and Asia by an ocean route, and marking the beginning of a sea-based phase of global multiculturalism.
Before Da Gama, other explorers had reached South Africa, but failed in discovering the eastern part of the African continent. Da Gama and his 170 men, however, went beyond the Cape of Good Hope as you can see in his sea route, and made it to India, thanks to the famous Arab navigator Ibn Majid he met in Kenya, who led them there.
In 1898 Rio de Janeiro, a group of Portuguese immigrants founded this sports club in Vasco da Gama's honor, 400 years after he had reached India and changed the world: his sea route to India would be honored with a diagonal white stripe in Vasco's crest, with a black background color referring to the unknown seas of the Orient, and a red Cross, dedicated to the religious Order of Christ.
The Football Club and the pioneers against racism
As most Rio de Janeiro sports club of the late 1890s, rowing was Vasco's first sporting activity, until a football department was created in 1915, so they could start at the 3rd division of the Rio de Janeiro State League (Carioca League), until they reached the 1st division in 1923.
However, their great football results at their first season in the Carioca 1st division would be overshadowed by elite club's protests against their black, brown, portuguese and even white, but poor, players. To avoid playing Vasco multicultural players, elitist and racist clubs of the time (like their rivals Flamengo, Fluminense and Botafogo) decided to form a parallel league, without Vasco, which would nevertheless last only one season.
Since Brazil's national league would only be created in 1959, the State Leagues were the main tournaments, where most Brazilian great players would be formed and then sent to the National Team. Vasco would be facing 3 main rivals at the State League, namely Flamengo, Fluminense and Botafogo, and also very traditional teams and World Cup feeders like Bangu, América and São Cristóvão. So, please, be respectful about the Brazilian State Leagues, because they were a big deal back then, and so it was until the 1980s. In the 1920s and 1930s, Vasco managed to win 5 State League titles, and provided Brazil with 7 players for the 1930, 1934 and 1938 World Cups.
1940s: the Victory Express
The first big era of Vasco came in the 1940s: between 1945 and 1952 they won 5 State League titles (3 of them unbeaten), and very notably the South American Championship of Champions in 1948, the direct and official precussor of the iconic Copa Libertadores, created in 1960, and also the inspirer of the European Cup, created in 1955. Vasco represented Brazil as the Rio de Janeiro State League champions of 1947, and played against the national champions of Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia, in a round-robin system, all matches taking place in Santiago, Chile.
|1948||South American Championship of Champions|
|14/02||Vasco 2-1 Litoral/BOL|
|18/02||Vasco 4-1 Nacional/URU|
|25/02||Vasco 4-0 Deportivo Municipal/PER|
|28/02||Vasco 1-0 Emelec/ECU|
|08/03||Vasco 1-1 Colo-Colo/CHI|
|14/03||Vasco 0-0 River Plate/ARG|
According to ClubWorldRankings.com, Vasco was the 2nd best team in the world in the 1940s, second only to the Italians of Torino. However, it is important to remember that European football was partially suspended in this decade due to the 2nd World War.
The show must go on! Vasco 4-3 Real Madrid, Vasco 7-2 Barcelona, and more (1957/58)
In the 1950s, with the addition of eventual World Cup stars Vavá and Bellini, Vasco's State League title finally came in 1956, after 4 years.
Regarded as South America's best team, Vasco was invited to prestigious friendly tournaments in France and Spain, in 1957. Vasco won the Tournoi de Paris against Di Stefano's, Gento's and Kopa's Real Madrid in the final, at a full Parc des Princes with 40.000 spectators in Paris, France. They beat them 4-3, with Vavá scoring once. French newspaper France Soir would report that "Real Madrid isn't the world's best team. About that, speak with Vasco". Some of the match highlights (including a struggle at 2-2) can be seen here (2mn39s video).
This South American victory inspired UEFA and Conmebol to create the Intercontinental Cup in 1960, in order to test the European champions against their South American counterparts.
Vasco would then win the Tereza Herrera, beating Bilbao 4-2, with 2 goals from Vavá.
Ten days later, a sonorous 7-2 against Copa del Rey champions, Barcelona, at Les Corts, Barça's former stadium. According to this Catalan newspaper's art, it was a racial football lesson from the black brazilians. Vavá scored twice.
In 1958, Vasco finally won the prestigious interstate Rio-Sao Paulo tournament in 1958, after finishing 2nd four times, and notably beating Pele's Santos 1-0. They also won the 1958 State League.
Vasco and Brazil World Cups in the 1950s
Vasco also had their share in great World Cup campaigns from Brazil, notably the trophy-winning one in 1958. In the table below you can see all World Cup players provided from Vasco to Brazil in 1950 and 1958, notably Ademir in 1950, and the 1958 champions Bellini (captain) and Vavá (2nd topscorer, with 5 goals).
This man's name speaks for himself. Dinamite numbers are mental: he scored 708 goals in 1110 matches for Vasco. He's the only brazilian player, alongside Pelé and Rogério Ceni, with more than 1000 matches for the same team in Brazil.
Dinamite played in a very stacked Brazilian League: names like Rivellino, Falcão, Zico, Sócrates, Cerezo, Careca, Bebeto, Romario, were spread in many different teams, making things more difficult to all of them. He was however able to win one Brazilian League in 1974, notably beating Pele's Santos, Falcao's Internacional and Dirceu's Cruzeiro on the finals, and also collect 5 State Leagues during his 19 seasons at Vasco. He was the Serie A topscorer in 2 editions and elected to the Best XI three times (1979/81/84). His best goalscoring season was 1981, when he scored 62 goals, and he is, to this day, the highest topscorer of the Brazilian Serie A, with 190 goals.
Dinamite would be part of the Brazil NT at the 1978 and 1982 World Cups. He didn't play in 1982, but found his way into the starting 11 in 1978: he had his first chance in the third and decisive group game against Austria, scored the winning goal (47s video), and played all 3 matches on the next group stage, scoring 2 more goals, both against Poland. Brazil lost to Argentina on the goal difference (8-5), and was eliminated in a very controversial way, due to Peru very strangely losing (1mn46s video) 0-6 to Argentina in the last group match.
A young named Romario
If Brazil still couldn't win a World Cup since the mighty 1970 team, and not even a Copa America since 1949, Vasco had been upbringing the solution for both problems. Not only he had a name, but also a provoking character: Romario made his professional debut in 1985, at the age of 19. With only 1.67m, Romario -nicknamed Shorty- played as a centre-forward, and scored 139 goals in 196 matches in the 4 seasons he spent at Vasco (1985-88), before being sold to PSV for US$ 6 million. He won, alongside Dinamite, 2 State Leagues and was Brazil's topscorer with 7 goals at their runner-up campaign at the 1988 Seoul's Olympic Games. Romario would go on to win the 1989 Copa America and the 1994 World Cup, ending Brazil's both titles drought.
Bebeto, the 1989 Brazilian League title and 3rd best player in the world
Curiously enough, both Romario and an old Dinamite left Vasco from the mid to the end of 1988: the former to PSV and the latter to Portuguesa, on a one-year loan. Without their incredible duo, Vasco bought the Flamengo and Brazil star Bebeto, who played as a forward, was 25 years old, and managed to lead Vasco to the Brazilian League title of 1989, beating Sao Paulo 1-0 (1mn10s video) in the final. Indeed, Bebeto had an outstanding 1989 season: champion and topscorer of the 1989 Copa America, elected best player in Brazil by Placar Magazine, best player in South America by El País Newspaper and 3rd best player in the world by World Soccer Magazine, beating names like Maradona, Baresi, Romario and Laudrup, but behind Gullit and Van Basten. Bebeto scored 10 goals in 18 matches for Brazil that year.
The 1990s Golden Era: the Brazilian NBA League and Vasco all-star squad
The 1990s was a great decade for almost all of Brazilian big teams, and it wasn't different with Vasco. They collected 2 continental titles, 2 Brazilian Leagues, 1 interstate Rio-Sao Paulo tournament and 4 State Leagues. In a country with at least 12 big teams, it's quite a notable achievement.
Vasco had an absurd collection of top level talent in this decade, at a time when Brazilian talents would stick around longer, or not even go to Europe. The Brazilian League was decided in play-offs, and had pretty much the north-american NBA vibes, in both matters of talent and format. The 1990s is considered the last decade of brazilian "root football", in the sense of being high-leveled and with an oldschool attitude. In the table below, a list with the notable players that have been at Vasco in the 1990s.
|Player||Years||Apps||Goals||Brazil NT caps||WC participations||Europe|
|Romario||2000||72||66||70||2 (1990, 1994)||Barcelona, PSV|
|Bebeto||1989-92||115||59||76||3 (1990, 1994, 1998)||La Coruña|
|Edmundo||1992, 96-97, 99-00||146||114||39||1 (1998)||Fiorentina, Napoli|
|Juninho Pernambucano||1995-01||295||56||40||1 (2006)||Lyon|
|Juninho Paulista||2000-01||87||18||50||1 (2002)||Middlesbrough, Atlético Madrid|
|Roberto Dinamite||1992||24||10||38||2 (1978, 1982)||Barcelona|
|Dener (deceased at 23)||1994||17||5||2||-||-|
|Luizão||1998||71||38||17||1 (2002)||La Coruña, Hertha Berlin|
|Carlos Germano||1990-99||632||0||9||1 (1998)||-|
|Ricardo Rocha||1994-95||94||3||42||2 (1990, 1994)||Real Madrid|
|Mauro Galvão||1997-00||88||6||26||2 (1986, 1990)||Lugano|
|Junior Baiano||2000-01||48||3||25||1 (1998)||Werder Bremen|
|Amaral||1999-00||16||1||38||-||Fiorentina, Benfica, Parma|
|Zé Maria||1999||34||4||25||-||Parma, Perugia, Internazionale, Levante|
Vasco began the 1990s winning an unprecedented three consecutive State League titles (1992/93/94) in the last years of Roberto Dinamite, Bebeto and Bismarck. The Rio de Janeiro State League of 1992 saw the upcoming of folkloric forward Valdir Moustache and of a future world class player, Edmundo, who scored 24 goals in 32 matches in his first professional season at the age of 20, also having his first chance at the Brazil NT.
It would be between 1997 and 2000 that Vasco big campaigns and titles would take place. In the 1997 Brazilian League, led by a fierce Edmundo who demolished the tournament with 29 goals in 28 matches, winning the title and the Brazilian Golden Ball. The final was against a stacked Palmeiras, that had 5 World Cup-winning players, and specially the number 10 Alex, the wronged. After two 0-0 ties, Vasco secured their 3rd Brazilian League title.
The Eternal Glory: the 1998 Copa Libertadores
In 1998, year of the club's centenary, Vasco won the State League, and also their 2nd continental trophy, the epic 1998 Copa Libertadores. Vasco went unbeaten in the knockout stage (5W-3D), defeating Dida's Cruzeiro, Ronaldinho's Gremio and the Argentines from River Plate before facing Barcelona de Guyaquil in the final. Highlights to the semi-final between Vasco and River Plate: in the first match in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil NT goalkeeper Carlos Germano made the difference with a very difficult save from Gallardo's (current River Plate coach) free-kick, thus securing Vasco the 1-0 victory.
Epicness at its greatest would happen in the 2nd leg between Vasco and River Plate, at the Monumental de Nuñez stadium, in Argentina. With River Plate winning it 1-0 and taking the match to extra time, at minute 81, Juninho Pernambucano scored this magnificent goal (59s video) from his trademark style, the free-kick. It would be considered, until today, the most important and memorable goal in the whole history of Vasco da Gama.
In the final against Barcelona de Guyaquil, Donizete opened the score with a tremendous shot (8s video) from the outside of the area, and future World Cup-winner Luizão closed it 2-0 (11s video) at home. The second match was a walk in the park, with the Cariocas winning 2-0 (first with Luizão, and then with Donizete) at half-time, and 2-1 at the end of match, therefore winning Vasco's first Copa Libertadores, and second continental trophy, after the South American Championship of Champions in 1948.
Victories against Manchester United and Santos, but huge deceptions against Real Madrid, Corinthians, Palmeiras and Flamengo
Despite dominating Real Madrid in the 2nd half, Vasco lost 1-2 to them at the 1998 Intercontinental Cup in Tokyo. Highlights to Juninho Pernambucano and his beautiful equalizer, at minute 56.
After a great centenary year, Vasco didn't perform as expected in 1999, winning only an interstate Rio-Sao Paulo tournament, beating Santos in the final. In 2000, Vasco finished 2nd three times in the first 6 months: in the Club World Cup to Corinthians, in the interstate Rio-Sao Paulo tournament to Palmeiras, and in the State League to Flamengo. Highlights to Edmundo amazing play and goal (1m05s video) in their 3-1 win against Manchester United in the Club World Cup group stage.
The greatest comeback in Brazilian football history: the 2000 Copa Mercosul final, and the 2000 Brazilian League title
After demolishing River Plate in the Copa Mercosul (2nd tier continental cup) semi-finals, Vasco would meet again with Palmeiras, that they had beaten in the 1997 Brazilian League final, but got knocked off by them of the 1999 Copa Libertadores in the ro16.
First match, in Rio de Janeiro, Vasco 2-0 Palmeiras. Second match, in São Paulo, Vasco 0-1 Palmeiras.
Third match forced, again in São Paulo, at the Palestra Itália stadium, December the 20th.
Both teams needed this title to save their traumatic seasons. While Vasco had already lost 3 finals in the same year, Palmeiras had lost the Libertadores finals to Riquelme's Boca Juniors, in the penalties, in what could have been their first back-to-back titles in the tournament.
The match started, and well, at half-time, Palmeiras were already leading it 3-0. In the second half, with 2 penalty goals from Romario at 59 and 68, Vasco were back to it, but had their CB Junior Baiano sent off at 77. Nevertheless, Juninho Paulista tied it at 85, and Romario completed his hat-trick with this goal at minute 93, Vasco thus being crowned the 2000 Copa Mercosul champions.
The season, however, wasn't finished yet. Vasco played the 1st leg of the Brazilian League final on the 27th December, ending in a 1-1 draw against Sao Caetano. After 150 people got hurt in an accident in the 2nd leg on the 30th December, the big final was rescheduled to January 18th 2001. On this day, Vasco beat Sao Caetano 3-1, with goals from Juninho Pernambucano, Jorginho Paulista and Romario. It was the 4th Brazilian League title in Vasco's history, and the end of a glorious era.
Unfortunately, Vasco has been through more downs than ups since then, being relegated 3 times to the Serie B (2008/13/15), a negative record among the Brazilian big teams. The only seasons they've been able to replicate their glorious days were in 2011/2012, when they won their first Copa do Brasil in 2011, finished 2nd in the 2011 Brazilian League, reached the semi-finals of the 2011 Copa Sudamericana (continental 2nd tier cup) and also the quarter-finals of the 2012 Copa Libertadores.
To this day, Vasco has the 5th largest fanbase in Brazil, with around 10 million supporters spread across the country, and a stadium attendance average of 18.000, as of 2019.
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