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XMG Apex 15 - popular CPUs tested - What you can expect

XMG Apex 15 - popular CPUs tested - What you can expect
Hi folks!
Additionally to my YouTube videos (channel 3DAndStuff) I want to share my findings in readable form. Basically it will be parts of the video script with some images. I chose reddit as the platform to do so, because I started to like it since i made my account some weeks ago.
I hope it works out and many current and potential Apex15 owners can benefit from those articles / threads.

If you are not interested in reading all of this stuff, you can simply watch the corresponding YouTube video ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF6ehpKNcNw

And a quick note for potential buyers:If you want to buy a XMG Apex 15 and find my investigations useful, then please consider to support me and use the following link to get to XMG's shop website. I don't earn money with these links, it's just important for XMG to see if my content has any effect and help them decide if they will bump up support for my content in future. :) Thank you very much!
XMG Apex 15 - Shop Website: https://bit.ly/2EkRJ85

Intro

If you considered to buy a XMG Apex 15, you propably came to the point at which you struggle to decide which CPU is the one to choose. Let me try to help you out.
I want to give you some more detailed information, what you can expect from each CPU in regards to performance, temperature, noise and their overclocking & undervolting potential.
I have to thank XMG that they made this possible. They lend me 5 CPUs for my tests.
  • Ryzen 5 3600 (6C/12T) (production code 1928 - July 2019)
  • Ryzen 7 3800X (8C/16T) (production code 2022 - June 2020)
  • Ryzen 9 3900 (12C/24T) (production code 1948 - November 2019)
  • Ryzen 9 3900X (12C/24T) (production code 2019 - Mai 2020)
  • Ryzen 9 3950X (16C/32T) (production code 2008 - February 2020)
and of course my own processor was available for those tests, too
  • Ryzen 7 3700X (8C/16T) (production code 2011 - March 2020)

4 of the 6 processors tested
Why the 3800X and the 3900X you may ask? They are no option for configuration, I know. But I wanted to know if there is any benefit over their 65W counterparts (3700X vs 3800X | 3900 vs 3900X). Unfortunately there were no XT processors available for the tests, sorry! I was curious if they could make a difference. But more on those possible higher quality silicon differences later.
Also keep in mind that I only got one CPU each, which does not cover the variety of silicon quality. For a proper test I would need at least 10 samples each. So take the following results as an estimate, not as guaranteed.

Test conditions

The general hardware used for ALL tests was quite standard to represent the average hardware configuration most of the Apex 15 owners would run.
GPU: RTX 2070 Mobile Refresh 8GB VRAM
Memory: 2x8GB 3200MHz 22-22-22 (configured like Crucial 3200 CL22 modules)
Storage: WD SN750 NVMe SSD (M.2 PCIe 3.0 slot)

Production Benchmarks used:
  • CineBench R20 (as an example for rendering tasks)
  • PugetBench (as an example for video editing tasks)
Gaming Benchmarks used:
  • Shadow of the Tomb Raider (as an example for "modern" games)
  • Counter Strike : Global Offensive (as an example for competetive games)
  • TimeSpy (not really meaningful for CPU comparisons, but I will include it in this text review anyway, not in the video)

Thermal Compound
I ordered two Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut thermal pads to make the tests easier, cleaner and temperature measurements more reliable. I was not sure if thermal paste like the originally used Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut would introduce too much variance into the data, because it’s thermal performance can depend on the actual physical application style quite a lot. TG Carbonaut should provide more solid and well comparable data.

But it definitely is not performing as well as thermal paste. I measured a difference between freshly applied Kryonaut and the Carbonaut pads of 4-7°C (7-12°F).But Carbonaut could still be the better choice for all who don't want to do maintenance.

Thermal Paste Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut
degrades over time (can dry out because of heat stress) does not degrade (at least in theory) and does not need replacement
up to 12.5W/mK (can be thinner than thermal pad) up to 62.5W/mK (but is thicker [0.2mm] than thermal paste which leads to lower thermal transfer characteristics)
not reusable reusable (but can tear easily, be careful)

Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut

Ambient Temperature Calibration
Another part of my test equipment was a k-type thermocouple thermometer (PeakTech 5115), which I used to log the temperatures before every benchmark run on the left and right of the notebook, in the middle of the short edges. Finally I calibrated the data to equalize the room temperature differences between different measurements. So the temperature plots you see in this video got calibrated data in respect to 25°C (77°F) room temperature, which is rather high, but represents the use in summer time quite well. Winter room temperatures would decrease the notebook’s temperature and increase the performance a little.

Noise measurements
And finally I used a consumer grade sound meter (Voltcraft SL-100) in a comparable way to Notebookcheck's reviews. Originally I though they use 20cm (7.9in), but they use 15cm (5.9in) in reality. So my measurements are a bit off, I guess mine should be 1-1.5dBA less than theirs. AND very importantly I only measured those values with my bare eyes, a pencil and a paper. I had no way to record the measurements automatically on my computer, as I did with all the other data. Expect the noise measurements to be average-ish / peak-ish values. These are far away from being perfect.
Do you know what dBA measurement really mean for your personal perception? I think most people don't. Let me try to explain it to you. Basically those value are scaled logarithmically. There is no scientific proof of what a human being senses to be "double as loud as before", but in general most sources claim that a 10dBA difference makes a noise double or half as loud. So you should expect 60dBA to be double as loud as 50dBA, for example.
Please not that the background noise of a very quiet room (f.e. bedroom at night) should be around 30dBA. So you get an idea how quiet the presented idle noise of up to 37dBA is. It's not super quiet but quite quiet. ;)

TDP, PPT, Package Power - What does that mean?
So basically we talk about 65W and 105W TDP processors in case of Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000 series). TDP means "thermal design power" and does not automatically correspond to your processor's real power draw. In reality a 65W TDP Zen 2 processor can use up to 88W PPT or 90W Package Power.
Imagine TDP as "what your cooling system should at least be able to handle", only.

TDP PPT Typical Package Power
65W 88W 90W
105W 142W 144W

Cinebench R20

Let’s start with the most commonly found CPU benchmark out there: CineBench R20.
The scores for all of the CPUs spread out quite nicely and are well within range of a desktop computer, except for the 105W TDP Ryzen processors. Note that all CPUs inside this notebook do run in 65W mode, or so called “eco mode”, even the 105W TDP ones.
But that does not automatically mean, that you only got 65W divided by 105W, so 62% of performance. Performance does not scale linear with power. So normally you can expect 80-90% of the desktop’s 105W TDP processor’s computation power in highly multithreaded loads. Does not look as bad as expected, doesn't it? In single threaded applications you can expect roughly the same performance as in their full 105W TDP configuration.

CineBench R20 - nT Multi Score (average of 3 runs)
Processor 88W Performance Mode 65W Entertainment Mode
3600 3542 3456
3700X 4711 4294
3800X 4816 4550
3900 6362 4753
3900X 6347 4605
3950X 7039 4293

Looking at the package power draw we see that all processors but the Ryzen 3600 can reach the defined 88W PPT limit. Or are they? We see they fall back to 78W after just a few seconds. So what’s going on?
Well, the Clevo Control Center software gives us control over the power modes. But it also takes control from us. If we use the full 88W PPT performance mode the control center tracks power draw and temperature and quickly lowers the 88W PPT to 78W PPT if we exceed 80°C (176°F) for too long. That’s pretty much the main reason that we do not match desktop’s performance every CineBench run. But we are very close, even with 10W less.
CPU Comparison - CineBench R20: CPU Package Power Draw
CPU Comparison - CineBench R20: CPU average die temperature
Temperature wise the 1 CCD processors (Ryzen 3600, 3700X, 3800X) run hotter than their 2 CCD counterparts (Ryzen 3900, 3900X, 3950X) in full load scenarios, which is easily explainable by the fact that the generated heat is more densely concentrated on that one CCD. For the 3900 and 3950X the heat is split between their two CCDs and heat transfer to the IHS and cooling system is more efficient that way.
heat dissipation differences: 2CCD (3900/3950X) and 1CCD (3600/3700X) processors in 65W mode under high all-core load conditions
Noise is pretty much the same for all processorsin the 88W performance mode and can reach very high sound levels. Using the 65W entertainment mode the fans operate much quieter.
But we lose performance in the 65W Entertainment mode of course, since we limit the processor’s PPT. Interestingly, the more CPU cores we got, the more performance we loose with lower PPT power modes. It is so bad, that I can’t recommend to use the Silent power mode (45W or 32W depending on BIOS version) with the 12-core and 16-core CPUs at all. Their base power draw is simply too high, but you will see in the following idle scenario plots.
Noise - CineBench R20 *
*note that the fans in the Entertainment Mode are much less aggressively ramping up and could not always reach their target speed with higher core count processors, because they finished the benchmark "too fast". Also note that CB20 uses CPU only. In rendering applications which can make use of the GPU the noise should be a little higher and closer to each other over all CPU options, since the GPU puts more heat into the cooling system (resulting in higher fan speeds, more noise, et cetera).

Idle

Coming to the idle power draws we can already see why so many people report about a super loud notebook with nervous fans when they use a higher tier processor. Especially the 3950X is producing a significant amount of heat in idle, so the fans run above their idle level almost all the time in the performance mode. Only the 65W Entertainment mode can run this notebook quiet enough for comfort use. Because it uses a different and more silent fan curve.

CPU Comparison: Idle | CPU Package Power (Top) | CPU Average Temperature (Bottom)

Noise - Idle (Windows 10 desktop)

Browser: Video Streaming 1080p60 & scrolling websites

The same disadvantage can be observed when you do some simple tasks like web browsing, scrolling websites and watching video streams. Even such light loads can lead to noticeable fan noise levels. Only the 6-core Ryzen 3600 and 8-core Ryzen 3700X and 3800X can operate this notebook cool enough that the fans don’t exceed their idle state too often.
But on the other hand, with the 65W Entertainment mode, the notebook stays relatively quiet, when you think about it being a desktop computer inside a notebook chassis.
CPU Comparison - 1080p60 Stream: CPU Package Power Draw
CPU Comparison - 1080p60 Stream: CPU average die temperature

Noise - 1080p60 Stream (Chrome Browser)

PugetBench for Adobe Premiere Pro

I promised I want to cover more production type Benchmarks, but I only had time for one additional one. Puget Systems created a benchmark with the help of Linus Media Group (Linus Tech Tips) and others. There is no other way to benchmark those applications independently from other reviewers, than to use this one.
It’s quite noticeable that the scores the XMG Apex 15 achieved are matching and sometimes even exceeding high end desktop systems. For example, a 10900k desktop computer with a desktop RTX 2070 graphics card found in their score database, stand no chance.
BUT there is more to say to those overall scores. Looking at the detailed score data we see that our live-playback score is the main reason for our incredible results. The reason for this should not only be the processors, but also (the GPU and) the high-end NVMe I run in my Apex 15. The purely CPU related “Standard Export Score” should more meaningful to evaluate CPU performance, even if it still relies on memory and GPU performance.
But still, the Apex 15 can playback 4k RED raw videos without any frames lost. This is simply amazing and even desktop systems cannot always keep up with this level of performance.
PugetBench for Adobe Premiere - 88W Performance Mode
Processor Standard Overall Score Standard Export Score Standard Live Playback Score
Ryzen 3600 742 63.1 85.2
Ryzen 3700X 804 74.4 86.3
Ryzen 3800X 797 72.9 86.4
Ryzen 3900 857 84.4 86.9
Ryzen 3900X 877 84.5 90.9
Ryzen 3950X 865 85.8 87.2
I have no idea how reliable those scores are in respect to repeatability. I guess scores can be off by 2-5% depending on room temperature, windows background processes, and so on. These benchmark runs take more than 30 minutes each. A lot can happen in this time.
For comparability I also include two example i9 10900k plattform with a RTX 2070 SUPER in the following table. Think about comparability what you want, but at least I think the performance is superb, we are talking about a notebook here guys!
PugetBench for Adobe Premiere - Comparison to Desktop systems
Processor Standard Overall Score *** Standard Export Score Standard Live Playback Score
Intel 10900K * 745 75.4 73.6
Intel 10900K ** 795 85.9 73.0
*Link: https://www.pugetsystems.com/benchmarks/view.php?id=14221
**Link: https://www.pugetsystems.com/benchmarks/view.php?id=13340
***The "overall scores" are influenced by the memory and storage quite a lot. Not very signifcant in relation to a CPU comparison in my opinion.

Shadow of the Tomb Raider

Coming to gaming benchmarks we start off with Shadow of the Tomb Raider. As you may already guessed, we can see a generally higher power consumption with increasing core count again. And you may hoped for more FPS as a trade-off. But I am sorry to disappoint you. The real performance of all processors is very close to each other.
So if you really thought about a 12-core or 16-core CPU for an ultimate gaming experience, think twice. You get a massively louder notebook in daily tasks (f.e. web browsing) for nearly no measureable performance gains in games.But it is important to say, that the higher core count processors handle the last, more CPU-heavy benchmark scene more easily than their lower core count counterparts. But the SOTTR benchmark is strongly GPU limited anyways. So more than 8-cores can come in handy in CPU heavy gaming scenes only.
Shadow of the Tomb Raider - FPS
Processor 88W Performance Mode 65W Entertainment Mode
3600 100 98
3700X 104 102
3800X 104 101
3900 104 99
3900X 104 100
3950X 104 102
Settings:
Preset "High" - SMAAT2x - DX12 - 1920x1080
Tip: If you use TAA instead of SMAAT2x you can exceed 110 FPS in the benchmark
CPU Comparison: Shadow of the Tomb Raider | Package Power (Left) | CPU Average Temperature (Right)
Temperature-wise we see the same ranking as with package power again. Only in CPU-heavy scenes the 1CCD processors can run temporarily hotter than their 2 CCD counterparts. In respect to the temperatures we can also see similar ranking in fan noise levels. But the differences between the processors are way smaller than we would expect from those noticeable different power draws and temperatures. The reason for this is the GPU-fan which is at nearly 100% all the time due to the additional 115W GPU power draw fed into the cooling system.
Noise: Shadow of the Tomb Raider

CS:GO

In competitive games like “Counter Strike : Global offensive“ we stress the GPU and CPU roughly balanced to each other. Even if this game does not require high-end CPUs, it is a competitive game which benefits from high framerates. This puts significant higher load on the CPU than with simple 60FPS gaming. And you can see that in our plots. The package power draw is pretty high even without any complex scenes displayed, compared to the SOTTR benchmark before. Depending on what is going on the temperatures are rising and falling all the time. But as before we got a clear ranking in power draw, temperature and noise again.
To reduce the noise we could run in Entertainment mode. But using the 65W Entertainment mode we run in a problem with the 3950X. It is so strongly constrained in this mode that I experienced sudden frame-drops to less than 150fps, instead of running in the frame-limit at 240FPS all the time. All other processors were able to deliver 240 FPS all the time by the way.
CPU Comparison: Counter Strike : Global Offensive

Noise: Counter Strike : Global Offensive


Time Spy (3DMark)

following soon

Overclocking potential

And finally let’s take a look at the overclocking potential. Well, I already talked about that in detail in the first tuning guide video, but I didn’t had those beautiful plots and all the processors back then.
If you have no idea what I mean with overclocking, I simply talk about a fixed core frequency for all cores equally. It’s called ManualOC and the beauty of this method is, that it still allows the processor to use AMDs power saving features, like sleep states. In fact overclocking can also help you save power and reduce heat and still maintain a high performance level.
And that’s exactly what we want in our thermally constrained notebook systems.

CineBench R20 - Overclocking Potential (average of 3 runs)
Processor 88W Performance Mode 88W Targeted ManualOC 65W Entertainment Mode 65W Targeted ManualOC
3600 3542 unstable 3456 3723
3700X 4711 5034 4294 4796
3800X 4816 5114 4550 4883
3900 6362 6974 4753 6340
3900X 6347 6721 4605 6144
3950X 7039 8451 4293 7413

Processor 88W Targeted ManualOC * 65W Targeted ManualOC *
3600 unstable (88W exceed 1.35V) 4.100GHz at 1.225V
3700X 4.200GHz at 1.219V 4.000GHz at 1.100V
3800X 4.275GHz at 1.275V 4.075GHz at 1.125V
3900 3.900GHz at 1.044V 3.550GHz at 0.906V
3900X 3.775GHz at 1.038V 3.425GHz at 0.906V
3950X 3.600GHz at 0.975V 3.150GHz at 0.838V
\those results are highly dependend on your CPU's silicon ("quality"). My results are unlikely to match yours! Every CPU is different.*

So I simply tried to match 88 and 65 watt power draw in CineBench R20, comparable to the classic power modes for my tuning attempt.
Basically all processors showed great response to the ManualOC tuning method for multi threaded workloads. You can achieve roughly the same performance levels of the 88W performance mode with only 65 watt power draw using ManualOC. And the 88W ManualOC result in even higher performance levels. This is accelerating nearly all production tasks noticeable.

The trade-off about this method is that the CPU will stop boosting, so you never reach higher values than set. This can harm single threaded applications, because they strongly benefit from the boost mechanic. So what does that mean for gaming? Gaming is known to be somewhat dependent on single threaded performance. But modern games use more and more threads. So the lower single thread performance disadvantage does not influence most games too much in reality. In fact SOTTR can even benefit from ManualOC in computation heavy scenes.
So all in all the performance is roughly the same as with the regular power modes, BUT we can decrease power draw, temperature and noise significantly. Even if the Manual OC with 88W power target can draw the same amount of power as the classic 88W Performance mode in full load situations, it actually uses dramatically less power than the Performance mode in all other situations. Not just in games, but also in my browser benchmark and even in idle.
Also the temperatures and noise benefit from that action noticeable.
Even if it’s not ideal for single threaded applications, I still think that ManualOC is the way to go for this notebook. The advantages are huge.
To apply ManualOC automatically after a system reboot you can use the software ZenStates for example. There is even a version for Linux based operating systems. But make sure to deactivate the ControlCenter software in windows services, otherwise it could revert your settings from time to time.

ManualOC - CPU Package Power - Idle (Left) | SOTTR Ryzen 3700X & 3800X (Middle) | SOTTR Ryzen 3900 (Right)
ManualOC - CPU Average Temperature - SOTTR Ryzen 3700X & 3800X (Left) | SOTTR Ryzen 3900 (Right)
Noise in IDLE with regular 88W Performance mode (Left) and with 88W ManualOC (Right)

Conclusion

With all that data I think we can conclude that you should only run a higher core count CPU in your Apex 15 if you really need those cores. If you are a gamer, go for the 6-core Ryzen 3600 or if you got some more to spend go for the 8-core 3700X. The 3900 and 3950X are only for those who really use production applications at least weekly. Not to mention that the 3950X is overkill in regard of price to performance. The 3900 can be nearly as fast as the 3950X, especially when using ManualOC OC/UV.
Additionally I want to mention the pretty obvious flaw of the Silent (32W or 45W) and Power Saving (28W) power modes being totally useless for users with the 3900, 3950X. Their power draw can exceed those limits even in idle, which makes them useless for any task.
ManualOC is the way to go if you really want to safe power, reduce temperarture spikes, reduce fan noise and maybe even increase the overall performance a little, IF you don't need single core performance to often. But games? ... Well, let's be honest, even the very most games do not see the advertised single core boost regularly, because they simply use more than just 2 threads. Games using only 1-2 threads heavily are a rarity these days.

Notable mentions

And finally let’s talk about my little experiment with the 3800X and 3900X. Are those processors any different than their 65W counterparts? The answer is yes and no.
The 3900X showed minor differences compared to the 3900. In fact it was a little worse overall in regards to power draw and temperature.
The 3800X on the other hand was amazingly different compared to my 3700X. It was overclockable a little higher than my 3700X, but the most impressive difference was the power draw. The 3800X sample processor showed up to 15W less power draw for the same tasks than the 3700X, while the performance was roughly equal. The difference was so big I asked myself what was going on there. Since I also noticed some lately upcoming discussions on cheaty power telemtry on Ryzen mainboards (https://www.reddit.com/Amd/comments/gz1lg8/explaining_the_amd_ryzen_power_reporting/) I thought that this could very well be the case here, too. The numbers looked too good and I found suspicious values reported by HWInfo running on my Apex 15, too.
So I tried to contact u/The-Stilt, who originally draw attention to this topic and chatted with him for a couple of days. I also purchased a simple AC power meter to check if there is some suspicious things going on.
But nothing. The results seem to be legit. We basically concluded that it could still very well be, that the mainboard telemetry is affected by the BIOS in some way, otherwise the power deviation would not be that far off. The performance and power draw of the 3800X seem to be explainable with simply superior silicon quality.
But stop right there. Before you abandon your processor and run out to purchase a presumably more efficient processor consider what I wrote in the beginning. I only got one processor each. My sample size is too small to conclude anything here. So in the end I just got somewhat lucky with this 3800X sample processor. Some 3700X out there could very well match those characteristics. Or maybe it’s true and the 3800X is more power efficient in average. But I can’t say for sure if that’s the case.
As I said, my sample size is way too small.

Upcoming Hardware & Outro

And there is another reason to hang on your current processor for some more months. Zen 3 is coming! The launch will be very soon, on 8th October. There are rumors that Zen3 will finally be faster than Intel in every task, even in gaming. But let’s be patient and wait for some benchmarks.
Well, XMG already told us some weeks ago, that they still can’t guarantee Zen 3 support in the current Apex 15 notebook generation, even if they are positive about their ODM will make it happen one day. Sooner or later there could also be a successor model of the Apex 15, but that’s not sure. Sales have to continue to be as good as they are. But to be honest, if they already say the sales are good, why they shouldn’t go for a successor model?
If you have any questions regarding the presented data or processors feel free to use the comment section for that.
Don't forget to watch the video if you want to hear me pronounce "Zen 3" as "Sssen Sssree" over and over again. ':D It's not made for my tongue.

Thanks for reading!
submitted by coreZair to XMG_gg

[Spoilers] Lost and Mythical Cities - Mysterious Setting Discussions

A common trait Assassin’s Creed groups have is the constant theorizing about future settings, because historical tourism is one of the best parts of the series. Over the past few weeks I’ve written about over two dozen potential settings and often would discuss lost and mythical cities such as Ys, Barara, Iram, and Kitezh. Today I want to just focus on some mythical and lost cities that I didn’t give any attention to. Most of these I think would work well as DLC rather than full games.


North America
Cities made of gold were popular mythical cities when the Spanish were colonizing the Americas. The most famous of these is of course El Dorado which was often believed to be in South America. Based on Isu sites I speculated it could be near modern-day Bogota, Lima, Machu Picchu, or the Delta of the Amazon River. Looking North was alleged to be another 7 cities scattered through the southwest US called the 7 Cities of Cibola. These were (obviously) seven native American cities filled with gold and treasure. The Zuni-Cibola Complex of sites around the Sonora Desert is likely what gave rise to these rumors combined with the myth of the gold cities dating back to the 9th century, Spain. In 1540 Francisco Vázquez de Coronado led an expedition throughout the southwest finding the city of Quivira along with other Adobe towns but never found any gold. This might be good side content for a game set in the southwest during the Mexican American War, or it could be a good DLC to a game set in Aztec Mexico. What really interests me is the combination of Aztec Mythology and this Spanish Mythology about the golden cities and islands of gold, and the thing that ties it all together is interestingly Vikings. I go pretty heavy into some theory/ conspiracy territory in THIS thread and would recommend checking it out for some ideas about Norumbega appearing in Assassin’s Creed Valhalla.
The other really famous North American site is the Fountain of Youth. Stories about a place that keeps one young started thousands of years ago, and were even told by Herodotus. The first Governor of Puerto Rico, Juan Ponce de Leon, was allegedly told that the fountain was on the island of Bimini, though within assassin’s creed Lore, this was likely an intentional red herring. Ponce de Leon would become obsessed with the fountain and take several voyages to Florida looking for it. His last voyage was in 1521 when he was attacked and injured by an arrow after landing in Charlotte harbor. Within AC lore, this was purposefully done by native assassins protecting the Isu site due to Ponce de Leon getting too close. He would die from the wounds a few days later in Cuba. Ponce de Leon’s enthusiasm has since caused many people to go searching for the fountain, and I think this would be a wonderful DLC for an Aztec and Mayan based game. Maybe templars are searching in the Yucatan and find a clue to show that it’s not in Bimini but really in Florida, and our character could hunt them to Florida and work with local assassins there.


Northern Africa
I want to preface this by saying that Northern Africa actually wasn’t always a large desert. 15,000 years ago, it was actually in a humid period and covered in grasslands, forests, and lakes. Lake Chad in the Chad basin is currently 521 square miles in area, but just 12,000 years ago covered over 150,000 square miles. Just within the past 40 years, the lake has shrunk 95% of its size from 1972. To the west are other major rivers including the Senegal and Niger which still exist, and have been historically important trade routes. Just to the north, though, was the Tamanrasset, a massive palaeochannel that was filled with water as late as just 5,000 years ago. In the middle of this channel was a volcanic dome that was eroded away leaving several rings making the Eye of the Sahara or the Richat Structure. You’re bound to find tons of things online saying it might be Atlantis, which while a fascinating theory, it probably wasn’t. Atlantis is most likely a myth based on the Minoan Civilization that was destroyed by the eruption of Thera; which was what Odyssey based its Atlantis on (combined with Isu). Despite this, the Richat Structure is almost definitely an Isu site, and was right around the location of the Mali Empire in Mauritania, making it perfect to fit in for a game centered around Mansa Musa, who could even tie back to Midas and his “golden touch”. There is debate around whether or not the structure was ever inhabited, but some claim pottery and shards have been found there. At a minimum, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to find a settlement or camp there made of tents.
The rivers would dry up due to weather changes with the ice age, and between over-farming of goats and weather and climate conditions, the one fertile plains gave way to the desert over several thousand years, creating the Sahara we now have. In the late 15th century, a camel driver crossing the Sahara west of Egypt lost his way during a sandstorm during which his entire party had died. He wandered the desert lost and confused for days before being met by people who spoke a different form of Arabic and carried strange swords. They brought him to a largely white city in the desert named Zerzura and treated him with care and comfort until a mysterious golden ring appeared in his possession that the city guards became extremely angry over. They dragged him into the desert to have his hands chopped off when he escaped and eventually made it to Benghazi in Libya. He told locals the story and when they went to look for the city and oasis, they couldn’t find it. Allegedly, though, this mysterious ring did come back with the camel driver and in the 1970s, al-Gaddafi took the ring for himself. Maybe the city was an isu city or an apple illusion? I’d love to see this mystery tackled in AC though, maybe as a DLC, where the lost city is found by our protagonist, and the inhabitants never let anyone leave who found it. Maybe the city isn’t isu itself, but has a deep connection to the Isu or was an Isu factory of sorts, creating Rings of Eden which had the ability to reflect bullets. Perhaps this special golden ring had even more power than that.


Anatolia
Troy is best known for being the city-state that started the Trojan War and was a real lost city. After its destruction during the Trojan War, it was eventually repopulated by Greeks, but would be abandoned again. Located near Canakkale, Troy’s walls have since been found again, with some potential for even precise sewer and wall placement as described by Homer. While it was a lost city for a while, it doesn’t appear to be home to an Isu Vault. That said, I could see it being made a tomb or something like that in a game in Anatolia, as Perseus may have gained a Sword of Eden there, and Achilles who died at Troy may have held a PoE. I can definitely see Achilles having a shroud which kept him from dying in battle until an arrow in the foot caused him to trip and lose his protection.
A thousand years before the fall of Troy was the Phrygian Empire, with the capital city of Gordion established by Gordias. Some stories say that he adopted a son named Midas, who did a good deed for a Sartyr and was granted a wish by Dionysus. He asked for anything he touched to be turned to gold and famously tried to eat an apple which then turned to Gold. A potential tomb of Midas lies beneath Gordion, and it’d be interesting to find if he was given another type of apple that made people think everything was gold, or if he was given a special piece of Eden that did indeed turn everything he touched to Gold.


Eastern Asia
To the east are some very famous lost cities. The first of which is Shangri-La. Now Shangri-La itself is entirely mythical and comes from a 1933 novel. It is, however, based on the travelogue of French Missionaries from 1850 and ancient Tibetan Manuscripts that describe the existence of seven Nghe-Beyul Khembalung. These are sacred Beyuls or hidden valleys within the Tibetan Mountains. Despite the heavy ties to Buddhism, some ancient Chinese texts from the Qin Dynasty even describe these lands. A realistic take on Shangri-La would be fantastic to see and could easily be a DLC for a game set in China or India due to both bordering Tibet and having owned the mountains at various times.
Looking farther east we find another lost civilization, Yamatai. An ancient Sino-Japanese civilization from around 300bce-300ce, it existed at the height of the Yayoi period as the Yayoi people traveled across the strait of Korea and conquered the islands of Japan from the neolithic Jomon people. Yamatai has never been found, and thus speculation on it varies a ton. Some speculation marks it in modern Kyushu, in Southwest Japan, while other speculation puts it in the Strait of Korea near (or perhaps it was) Tsushima. My thought was that it could be an island among the Ryukyu Island chain. No lore exists on Yamatai, but there is an Isu Site right around the Ryukyu Islands near Taiwan. As a result, an island Yamatai like explored in Tomb Raider could make a solid DLC for feudal Japan or better yet, the Three Kingdoms China. During the three Kingdoms, Himiko came to power as a Shamaness-Queen of Yamatai, unifying the state after decades of warring between rival kings. Himiko has many different appearances tied to her, that of a seductive sorceress, an evil black magic user, a wise old woman, etc. Maybe we could see her as all of the above using a PoE to rule. Alternatively, as many historians think, Himiko may have been the Empress Consort Jingu who ruled as Regent. Both died in the mid 3rd century as well, and a DLC exploring the living Himiko or her Legacy would be fantastic.


Isu times
The Isu Era is the only setting here really deserving of its own game, but with that comes many issues of satisfactory lore after a decade and a half of build-up, and also whether it can satisfy the itch for historical fiction. Humans and Isu were at war with each other only for a few years about 75,000 years ago. From the lore we can tell, Adam and Eve were the first to escape the city of Eden, a garden-like city near Mt. Kilimanjaro in eastern Africa. While Adam and Eve appear to be the first humans to hold the ideals of the Assassins and have high Isu DNA concentration to resist the apples’ power, their son Cain appears to have been one of the first to hold the ideals of what would become the Templars. Other major cities we know about are Feyan and Atlantis. Atlantis’ lore is somewhat messy due to the way that the Odyssey DLC presents itself. It’s unclear how much of the memory was edited for Kassandra, how the city really looked, etc. Based on the memory shown to Desmond in Revelations, it appears most cities were large glassy structures, meaning either Atlantis was some strange exception or the memory was heavily altered. Feyan also appears to have been an important city, being where Juno went after being exiled from Atlantis, meeting with her father, Saturn, there. Juno was part of the Capitoline triad of Isu Scientists, which to me signals that Feyan was likely either the city of Rome or the city in modern-day New York that stood over the Grand Temple. A game exploring these cities and assassinating Isu and dealing with Human drama during the war leading up to the great disaster could be fascinating for sure. Perhaps this would be the best way to make a modern-day game and ending for the series. 50/50 Modern Day and Isu times for an all-out lore explosion.
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